FLCLick Noise - Episode 2
[Table of Contents available here]
STORY: Haruko barges into the Nandaba household and settles in as a maid, alongside Canti, the robot who burst out of Naota’s head. Noata is frustrated by his changing homelife, but meanwhile arson attacks are occurring throughout the city. He encounters Mamimi at a burned down school, and once again the horns coming out of his head begin to grow...
Interviewer: In Episode 2, "Fire Starter," the atmosphere changes into more of a young adult drama, doesn't it?
Sadamoto: We wanted to properly portray the heroine, but she doesn't really behave like a heroine very often (laughs).
Interviewer: This episode focuses on Mamimi, right?
Tsurumaki: In "FLCL," Haruko, Mamimi, and Ninamori are the three heroines, and we structured it so that each of them has their own episode. Episode 2 is Mamimi's episode.
Interviewer: I previously asked about Mamimi's character, but what does she mean to Naota?
Sadamoto: Well, she's his brother's girlfriend, so when you think about it, it feels quite lewd (laughs).
Tsurumaki: Ahahaha (laughs). From Naota's perspective, she's an older woman, so naturally, there is a sexual attraction. But mentally, she seems to be inferior to him. That kind of dynamic is erotic, isn't it?
Sadamoto: Who did the key animation for this scene?
Tsurumaki: This scene was done by Yusuke Yoshigaki1, he is very skilled.
Sadamoto: I thought it was great when I first saw it, and I feel the same way about it now. (While watching the scene where Naota points at Canti's monitor) Did you give instructions in the storyboards for this fisheye lens-like effect?
Tsurumaki: Hmm, it might not have been specifically instructed in the storyboard. But since Canti’s monitor is rounded like that, I told him to "draw it a bit distorted." I think he probably bought a mirror that had a fisheye-style lens and drew it while looking at that.
Sadamoto: The fisheye effect is well done, very nice.
Sadamoto: I really like the gags here. Like "Shoujo A!"2 (laughs)
Tsurumaki: I wonder who wrote this dialogue. Yoji Enokido, I think.
Sadamoto: This one made me laugh. “Robot Detective, K!" (laughs)
Interviewer: Ah, its a reference to that show we were talking about earlier, "Robot Detective K" (laughs)
Tsurumaki: Around this time, works like "Evangelion" were being discussed very seriously; but there's a point where if you take things too seriously, you end up [like Naota’s father] looking like an idiot (laughs). But I think Mamimi’s character is depicted quite interestingly. Even watching it now.
Interviewer: I don't know what she's thinking...
Tsurumaki: Perhaps it's better not to know... or maybe its more interesting precisely because you don't know, or something like that. If you think you know, you'll be defeated! That's what it means, I guess. Episode 5 is exactly that kind of story; the moment when Naota thinks he ‘gets’ Mamimi, he gets beaten instead.
Interviewer: (scene while Mamimi is pointing the camera at Canti) Oh, I see, Mamimi is a camera girl, isn't she?
Sadamoto: Did you already have the last scene in mind at this point?
Tsurumaki: No, I didn't.
Sadamoto: Really? I thought it was foreshadowing. I was thinking it was surprising you had foreshadowed it so early (laughs).
Tsurumaki: She has been snapping away since the first episode!
Sadamoto: Personally, I think the artwork in this scene is wonderful
Tsurumaki: This scene is the remains of the school that Mamimi probably set on fire.
Interviewer: In this scene and throughout "FLCL", songs by ‘The Pillows' are featured. What was the intention behind that?
Tsurumaki: Yeah, I've said this many times, but when we started "FLCL", I had no confident vision for the soundtrack. For example, I had concepts for and gave specific instructions regarding the dialogue during the dubbing sessions. Even when I was drawing the keyframes, I had something like “I want you to speak like this!” in mind, and I drew them accordingly.
I even had vague ideas when it came to sound effects, like while drawing the keyframes I would think, "This scene needs a ~gaii~3 sound effect" or somesuch. Even as an animator, I could visualize that much. However, I couldn’t do the same with music; I couldn't imagine at all what kind of music should accompany the scenes I was drawing. So, I really lacked confidence in that aspect.
Interviewer: I see, I see.
Tsurumaki: In my mind, the combination of cool music and animation is exemplified by DAICON IV4. When there's visual imagery, I don’t know what kind of music should be used, and even more so, I don’t understand how to commission composers and tell them, "Please create music like this." I've seen Hideaki Anno writing something like a menu for ordering the soundtrack, but I didn't know how it was organized or, in other words, how to commission music for say sad scenes.
But on the other hand, when you watch a drama, the theme song plays during the exciting, climactic parts, right? Like in "Tokyo Love Story"5, when things get serious, you hear the theme song by Kazumasa Oda (laughs). If its something clear like that, I could understand it, and I wanted to bring in that kind of feeling to FLCL. And with The Pillows, they already had many songs available, so I could choose the appropriate songs for the scenes. So if, by any chance, The Pillows said, "Don't use any of the existing songs, order a custom soundtrack from us," I would have been in a lot of trouble, I think.
Sadamoto: But there are also places where you used new songs, right? About two or three of them.
Tsurumaki: Yeah, but I didn't commission them either. The Pillows had a new album coming out, so they said I could freely use songs from there.
Sadamoto: Ah, so you didn't specifically commission them. What about the ending song, "Ride on Shooting Star"?
Tsurumaki: Well, initially for the ending, I requested a song like "One Life" (a different song by The Pillows). But well, they're not the type of people to take a request like that too seriously (laughs), so they came up with a completely different song. I think they submitted two songs, actually, and the other one was different from "One Life" but still more mellow. At that time, Sadamoto said, "Ah, 'Ride on Shooting Star' is much better." So, we went with that.
Sadamoto: Since it's the ending, I thought it was better to have something really catchy. That initial guitar riff, ~jaga-jaa-jang~, just listening to that I thought, "This is perfect for the ending" (laughs).
Tsurumaki: I thought "One Life" would be fine if it also could be used in the story itself.
Sadamoto: (Referring to the scene where Kanchi is reading a magazine in a convenience store) He’s reading "Della Beppin"6 (laughs). Who was responsible for this part again?
Tsurumaki: This part was done by Shinya Ohira7.
Sadamoto: Ah, right. If we don't explain it, ordinary viewers won't understand what is happening here.
Tsurumaki: Well, there is an animator named Ohira... (laughs).
Interviewer: That's not an explanation! (laughs) Ohira is an animator known for his very unique style.
Sadamoto: Imaishi was the animation director for the 2nd episode, and for young animators like him, Ohira is like a superior figure. He's incredibly skilled. So, he was too intimidated and couldn't make corrections to the animation (laughs).
Tsurumaki: Ahahaha (laughs).
Sadamoto: He said, "We'll let it go as it is!" and at that time, I thought, "Is he serious?" (laughs).
Tsurumaki: Okay okay, to explain it in detail (laughs), it's not like he said, "We'll just let it go." At the time the drawings had been made but they just remained uncorrected, sitting on a shelf. As the deadline got closer and closer, we realized we didn’t have time to correct everything. And if we tried to make corrections to this scene, it would probably require a complete overhaul or redraw, while Imaishi was in an “I don’t want to ‘fix’ it” mood (laughs). Except, the characters didn't look like they normally do, so we added the subtitles with their names. It's like having subtitles under the dialogue of a person speaking in a dialect, who also doesn't resemble the character. I thought if we could use the fact that they don't look like they should as a joke, then it was fine (laughs).
Interviewer: Ahahaha (laughs).
Sadamoto: So, does that mean you didn’t get Ohira’s consent to add those subtitles?
Tsurumaki: No, not at all (laughs).
Sadamoto: That's terrible, making his art into a gag (laughs).
Tsurumaki: Well, I think Ohira himself knew that the characters were not on model. It's not like he tried his best but couldn't make it work. He intentionally drew it knowing they would look radically different. We had a mutual understanding around the scene, you could say (laughs). That's why I turned it into a gag.
Interviewer: Who suggested asking Ohira to do this scene?
Tsurumaki: It was Mitsuhisa Ishikawa, the president of Production I.G at that time. Ohira was under contract with Production I.G and Ishikawa-san asked me, "Can we ask Ohira to work on 'FLCL'?" Initially, I was thinking of asking him to work on the second half of episode 2, specifically the scene where Canti descends from the sky. It wasn't a mecha action scene like he is known for, but still an effects-focused scene instead of a character-focused one. I wanted him to try his hand at effects animation, but Ohira said, "I want to do the porch scene" instead (laughs).
Interviewer: Ah, so it was Ohira’s choice.
Tsurumaki: Yes, there is that cut with the cat in this scene, and he thought he could have a lot of fun with that.
Interviewer: Indeed, the cat’s acting is adorable.
Tsurumaki: It is, right? (laughs)
Sadamoto: Ohira worked on a show called “The Hakkenden: Shin Shou”8, and he was in charge of an episode where, although the characters didn’t look like they normally do at all, it received a lot of praise from animators as "very cool!" Well, this is what happens when you assign a scene like this to a guy like that (laughs). We knew that going in, but I never thought we would let the scene go as it is.
Interviewer: Ah, so you would have had the animation director do their job, Sadamoto (laughs).
Sadamoto: Yes (laughs).
Tsurumaki: In the case of "FLCL", we appointed different animators with completely different styles as animation directors for episodes 1 and 2: (Tadashi) Hiramatsu and (Hiroyuki) Imaishi. So, I was prepared to tolerate those diverging styles, and personally I like works like "Urusei Yatsura", where the art style changes along with the changing animators, including the timing and the way the form of the characters is captured. However, I will say, I did wish for some corrections from the animation director for Ohira’s scenes to be made. But if the entrusted animation director says “I don't want to change it”, then there's nothing to be done about it (laughs).
Sadamoto: But Ohira worked on episode 4 as well, right?
Tsurumaki: Yes, he continued to work on episodes afterward - episode 4 and also episode 3.
Sadamoto: Well, I guess that means he wasn't angry (laughs).
Tsurumaki: I hope so (laughs).
Interviewer: From around this point, the story starts to delve more deeply into Mamimi's character. Things like her history of bullying are introduced.
Tsurumaki: Exactly, just like the works of Mitsuru Furuya or Tetsu Adachi, we honestly depict the unpleasant and negative aspects of youth. The theater plays I was being influenced by at the time also portrayed those unpleasant aspects quite a lot.
Sadamoto: It's a bit like Kyoko Okazaki’s9 works too, right?
Tsurumaki: Yes, and works by the theatre company Adult Projects [Otona Keikaku]10 also depicted those negative aspects; featuring cute girls as heroines where behind the scenes they engage in extremely negative, almost criminal activities... that is a theatrical-style script. I felt like an OVA would have the freedom to express such ideas. That's part of the charm of girls, including those negative aspects.
Sadamoto: You don’t just depict only the beautiful parts.
Interviewer: In Naota's monologue scene, hand-drawn text flows rapidly. Was that text originally detailed in the storyboards?
Tsurumaki: No, I don't think that was on them. I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
Interviewer: (Checking the storyboards) Ah yes, you're right.
Tsurumaki: The words were probably added during editing. In the script originally, there were separate scenes where the Firestarter game is being explained and Naota is being questioned by the police that gradually began to overlap... or something strange like that. Visually, I intended to do something weird, but in the end we settled on the scene as it is now.
Sadamoto: Do you think Naota's suspicions towards Mamimi became less necessary as production went on? When I first heard the story, I thought that point would be emphasized a bit more.
Tsurumaki: Well, Naota is beginning to suspect Mamimi of being the arsonist here. And in the actual dialogue, that suspicion comes out in the form of Naota being interrogated by a police officer, and him desperately denying it. Originally, we wanted to depict it as an full, stand-alone scene. However, considering the overall length of the episode, in the end we incorporated all of that into this scene depicting Naota's mental state. Naota is aware of his suspicions towards Mamimi, but he is trying not to consciously acknowledge them. In fact, Naota himself is confused. We portray that confusion as this chaotic, imaginary scene.
Sadamoto: Mamimi is the one who set fire to this school, right? But actually, the culprit of the more recent arson incidents around town might not be Mamimi.
Tsurumaki: Yeah, It might not be her. We were being misleading in that regard.
Interviewer: Hm, and then you cut down its role in the story, surprisingly.
Sadamoto: Yeah, I thought maybe Naota's doubts about Mamimi would be emphasized more, but it didn't come out that way, huh?
Tsurumaki: We didn't really emphasize that inner conflict angle too much, that's true.
Sadamoto: (When transitioning from Naota's flashback scene to the present scene, the soundtrack transitions to a cassette playing the same music diegetically) This transition had a nice sound to it, right? The sound effect processing [to make it sound like a realistic cassette player] is very cool.
Tsurumaki: It transitions smoothly from the soundtrack to a sound that is playing in the actual scene.
Interviewer: And coincidentally, Canti makes an appearance (laughs). He just happens to be there!
Tsurumaki: Today I probably would not have tried to pull that off.
Interviewer: It’s awfully convenient, isn’t it?
Tsurumaki: Canti is constantly searching for the fragments of his own head, so it's not surprising that he appears, okay? (laughs).
Tsurumaki: Is this scene Tetsuya Nishio11? The timing feels realistic, doesn't it?
Sadamoto: It's nice, I like how the action moves in chunks rather than just silhouettes.
Interviewer: There is a glimpse of a panty shot in there.
Sadamoto: It's not at all sexy though (laughs).
Tsurumaki: It's not something that I put in the storyboard; the animators added it on their own.
Sadamoto: It's not like they put it in for the fetish appeal. The way Mamimi's skirt flutters is quite rough; at the time I went to Imaishi and said, "Can't we make it a bit better somehow?", [so we added this]. Panty shots can be romantic, right? (laughs)
Tsurumaki: Well, Imaishi often does include this kind of shot...
Sadamoto: He likes relatively explicit things, but when push comes to shove maybe he was too embarrassed here to do more.
Tsurumaki: I don't know. Maybe he did just include it as fanservice, or it's part of his fetishistic sensibilities (laughs). Again, I don’t know.
Sadamoto: Even if you're drawing panty shots, if you don't realistically depict the way the skirt flutters above them, the impact of the panties is lessened, right? That is why the movement of the skirt isn’t there (laughs). I remember saying this scene wasn’t meant to be sexy.
Tsurumaki: In Episode 5, there's a scene with Kitsurubami partially naked; her clothes are torn and you can even see one of her breasts exposed. But it was a scene without any sensuality inherent to it, so I was like, "Huh, couldn't we do this without showing her breasts?" (laughs) Well, I try to think of it as fanservice.
Interviewer: Ah, like how it was done in “Ikki Tousen”12.
Tsurumaki: Yeah, Shinya Hasegawa13, who did the character designs for "Ikki Tousen," clearly has a fetish for breasts and thighs, I think. But I don't really know how Imaishi’s fetishism comes out in his work.14
Sadamoto: It's very concrete, isn't it? Like, "Yes, panties!" (laughs)
Tsurumaki: Maybe it's a fetish for girls with exposed panties, as opposed to the panties themselves? Well, I feel like Episode 3 is overwhelmingly composed of fetishes (laughs).
Interviewer: The second episode was about Mamimi, but doesn't she become a romantic interest for Naota in the end?
Tsurumaki: Yeah, that's something even Sadamoto was critical of. The end of the episode is a bit of a "I love you!" moment, where Naota decides to do his best for Mamimi. That's how it ends, but there's hardly any portrayal of that kind of relationship in Episode 3 and onwards.
Interviewer: Mamimi was never interested in Naota in the first place, right? Or rather, she doesn't see him as a romantic interest.
Tsurumaki: Well, that becomes clear later on. But what we're depicting in Episode 2 is not really a romantic interest, but more of a pet-like feeling, a sense of protectiveness towards someone weaker than oneself. Naota's feeling that he perceives as love here is probably instead a hidden sense of superiority. Wanting to protect the weak is something that can be expressed as a warm and gentle human kindness, but it's also the flip side of that sense of superiority. It says one is subtly looking down on the other person. So when it becomes clear later that their relationship was never actually like that, it breaks.
Interviewer: That becomes clear in Episode 5, right?
Tsurumaki: Sadamoto’s idea was that if you consider Mamimi instead as the heroine of the story, we could have portrayed their dynamic as more of a romantic relationship. In reality, I think that approach could have worked as well.
Sadamoto: From my perspective, Naota has three women in front of him, and he's attracted to each one of them. But in the end, he realizes that he can’t have any of them, and that he is just a kid. That's how I saw the story. So I wanted to delve a little deeper into that side and make Naota be in love with Mamimi while also caring about Ninamori. That sense of indecision and being stuck in between, I thought that aspect could be emphasized a bit more.
As for Ninamori, in the final version Naota doesn't have any romantic feelings at all for her, does he?
Tsurumaki: No, he doesn’t.
Sadamoto: In the planning stages of the project, I thought that Ninamori would experience a feeling of "Ah, I've been beaten!" by those around her. She would try to mediate the drama between her father and her mother and say, "Oh, I can't compete in this ‘adult’ world." I think that was part of our original conception for her.
Tsurumaki: At a certain point, I thought we had to focus on Haruko as the romantic interest. After all, it's a six-episode OVA; if it were a TV series, we might have been able to develop Ninamori a bit more. Also, Enokido and I have a bad habit of, even though it's a romantic story, adding more ideas to the story than just that. Instead of purely depicting romance, we overlay it with another theme. And when we try to depict that theme prominently, the romance ends up getting muddled (laughs). It's not that we forget about the romance, but trying to depict both themes might be a bit greedy on our part.
An animator born in Kanagawa Prefecture in 1973. Known for his work on shows such as "Kare Kano: His and Her Circumstances," he has primarily worked on Gainax productions. He is a contemporary of Hiroyuki Imaishi and, after an absence from animation, returned to the industry on the 20th episode of "Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann". He handled almost all the key animation by himself, and also participated in the film version of "Gurren Lagann".
TN: Just them voicing sound effects here, nothing is lost in translation.
A short made by the group "DAICON FILM." It was an independent animation group formed in 1981 in Osaka by Toshio Okada, Yoshihiro Takeda, and others, and they became the precursor to Gainax. The short was screened at the 1983 Japan SF Convention, known as DAICON. Sadamoto participated in this work as an animator.
A TV drama that aired in 1991. It was an adaptation of a comic of the same name by Fumi Saimon. The highest viewer rating of 32.3% was reached in the final episode, and the theme song, Kazumasa Oda's "Love Story wa Totsuzen ni", became a big hit, selling 2.7 million copies.
"Della Beppin" is an adult magazine that was launched in 1985 by Eichi Publishing (now Mediax). It gained popularity for its high-quality nude and gravure photos. It is also known for featuring "Neon Genesis Evangelion" in 1996.
TN: I was confused as to why they mention a random Evangelion interview; turns out it is claimed to be the first ever Evangelion interview that was featured in a non-anime magazine. I hunted it down so you can see slightly more details here.
An animator and director born in Aichi Prefecture in 1966. After graduating from high school, he joined Studio Pierrot. He gained attention as a mecha animator for his work on shows like "Bubblegum Crisis" and developed a unique animation style by boldly omitting lines and focusing on realistic movement. The porch scene in "FLCL," mentioned in the conversation here, is a prime example of his distinctive style.
An OVA series directed by Yukio Okamoto released from 1993 to 1995 (7 episodes in total). Episodes 3 and 4, in particular, featured famous animators and gained popularity as examples of excellent animation in the industry. Shinya Ohira directed the fourth episode, and Masaaki Yuasa served as the animation director, and it was known for the overwhelming quality of its animation.
A manga artist born in 1963 in Tokyo. She made her debut in the magazine "Manga Burikko" [A lolicon hentai manga] while studying at university. From the 1980s to the early 1990s, she released remarkable works such as "Georama Boy Panorama Girl," "Pink," and "River's Edge." She retired after a traffic accident in 1996, but her works continue to attract devoted readers.
A prominent theatre company specializing in smaller-scale productions, founded in 1988 by Matsuo Suzuki. They are still active today; their website is here with artists and works on display.
An animator born in Aichi Prefecture in 1968. After graduating from vocational school, he joined the studio Anime Spot. He worked on "Yu Yu Hakusho" and "Ninku" before becoming a freelancer. In the theatrical film "Jin-Roh" (2000), he served as the character designer and animation director, showcasing his robust action style that became quite popular. He is also well-known as the character designer for the anime series "Naruto."
A TV anime (produced by J.C.STAFF) directed by Takashi Watanabe, which aired in 2003. It is based on the manga of the same name by Yuji Shiozaki. It draws inspiration from the classic "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and gained attention for its intense and provocative female fighting action sequences. A sequel was also produced with a completely new staff attached.
An animator born in Tokyo in 1968. After graduating from vocational school, he worked at A-Pro before joining Toei Animation. He played an active role as the animation director for the "Sailor Moon" series. Later, he co-founded the production group "Be-Papas" with Kunihiko Ikuhara and participated in "Revolutionary Girl Utena" (1997). He is currently active primarily at J.C.STAFF, working on projects such as "Melody of Oblivion" (2004) and "Oku-sama wa Mahou Shoujo" (2005).
TN: I have no clue how a man could utter this sentence with a straight face about Hiroyuki “I made Kill la Kill and Panty & Stocking” Imaishi, but this is from 2010...